Discussion about this post

User's avatar
David MacLeod's avatar

Hi Michel,

I'll put myself in the Entropy camp, but one of the problems I see is that it has been a very small minority on the Left that have fully engaged in this view. Definitely not the woke identitarian Left.

You have often referenced Peter Pogany, but not in this post. As you know, my view is that Pogany along with Jean Gebser are the best exemplars of the third way. Pogany's view is that proper understanding of thermodynamics and the 2nd Law is going to be foundational for Global System 3, or Gebser's integral structure of consciousness. And in spite of the 2nd Law, he still holds a Tielhardian and Gebserian long term optimism, with "la promesse de bonheur as the entelechy-carrot."

He says "The immanence of thermodynamic reality and integral consciousness, straining to become empirical life, is one and the same process. The dissonance that will have to be resolved is manifest in a faintly recognized, innermost nostalgia of the individual for wholeness and in the deficient conduct of organizational groupings at all levels."

Here's where I bring in Howard Odum’s proposed 4th Law of thermodynamics (building order and structure by maximizing power - perhaps syntropy rather than negentropy), as a polarity to the 2nd Law (dissipation/entropy/equilibrium).

My perspective is that this should not be a debate that denies validity to either maximum power production or maximum entropy production, but rather an ongoing discussion about which side of the Polarity needs to be emphasized for a given time and context, and for what reasons. Systems expand, and systems contract. We need both. Continuous expansion is just an explosion and dispersion, which doesn't leave space for anything new and innovative. Continuous contraction is just death and destruction all the way around. As with all Patterns in PatternDynamics, we always need to be looking for optimal balancing in an ever fluid dynamic interplay. It is the tendency to over-identify with one or the other sides of this Order/Chaos Polarity Pattern that seems to be the source of so many misunderstandings and problems.

And in relation to spirituality?

The use of the proposed 4th Law and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics works not only in the physical/material domain as a final cause, but also in the spiritual domain. Meditation teacher Shinzen Young has suggested that Heraclitus was probably the first enlightened westerner. He quotes Heraclitus from memory:

"This world was not made by any man or any god, but was, is, and always will be eternal fire that wells up and subsides; that advances and recedes, that scatters and gathers. "

Young believes Expansion and Contraction to be the two fundamental forces of the universe, supported by this major pre-Socratic philosopher. “It is rather fascinating,” he claims, “that all over the world one has these systems that look upon God or creation in terms of a pair of activities that in some way affirms and negates, in some way expands and contracts.”

Young sees impermanence as the activity of Source. This impermanence is expressed as a vibration, and that it is the vibratory movements of impermanence that “gestates time, space, and beings” into existence, and which are reabsorbed back into the Source. What is needed to bring anything into existence is the ability to affirm and negate, expand and contract, to be able to say ‘yes’ but also ‘no’. Like our computers, it is a binary system that allows the ability to store all of the data in the universe.

"Ultimately one comes to realize that the reason things change is that there are two fundamental forces at work. The force that says ‘increase’ and a complementary antagonistic force that says ‘decrease’.

…what we come to realize is that whenever something gets a little stronger, it is doing so because of the presence of a fundamental, ubiquitous principle in the universe, which we might call the principle of increase, but which we could also name by any one of a dozen other names. The word that I personally like to use is expansion. …And when a sensation decreases in intensity, it’s because it has encountered the second and complementary ubiquitous principle of nature, which we might call the principle of decrease, but I like to call contraction. "

Michel Vandenberghe's avatar

Michel, this is a powerful framing. The idea of a “Third Narrative” is essential.

But from a ZEON perspective, the issue is not entropy vs. extropy — it’s the level of observation.

Both are partial views of the same system:

entropy in closed systems

extropy in open, relational ones

The left/right divide is therefore a framing artifact, not a true opposition.

Your Third Narrative exists — but it remains conceptual.

Without becoming operational (in markets, exchange, coordination), it will be reabsorbed by either limits (entropy) or extraction (extropy).

The real shift is this:

Those excluded from the market are not outside it — they are the market.

This implies a new market plane where:

individuals become economic actors

value is based on shared risk, not capital

relationships become the primary unit

The commons are key — but they must become market-generating, not just governance structures.

The blind spot remains measurement.

Without a new way to measure value, no paradigm shift can stabilize.

A risk-based currency is one possible path.

So the challenge is not just to tell a new story, but to build the architecture that can carry it.

Otherwise, the Third Narrative will remain captured by the system it seeks to transcend.

23 more comments...

No posts

Ready for more?